How Kirk Re-Energized His Elearning Design Career By Switching To Interactive Storytelling

TRANSCRIPTION

Anna:
Anna Sabramowicz here, and I have a fabulous guest with me today. His name is Kirk Wilson. He is actually a fellow Canuck. It's awesome.

Kirk:
Yay.

Anna:
So Kirk, by the way, thanks so much for being here. I seriously appreciate this. I know you're a busy guy, and you are right now doing something else magical in a vineyard. That's pretty awesome. That's the magic of working remotely.

Kirk:
It is true. It is true.

Anna:
Wish I was at a vineyard. Anyways, all right.

Kirk:
We don't run out of wine. That's the good thing.

Anna:
Yeah. Right. So, okay. So you recently launched your own interactive story, but basically what I wanted to do is dig into your journey, dig into your lessons, maybe the things that you thought were going to be different about working on an interactive story and working with us. But first off, let's just get into how did you get started as an instructional designer, eLearning developer? Where did that go? How did that start?

Kirk:
If we want to jump in the way back machine and go way, way, way back, it actually started when I broke my back. I crushed three discs in my back, and yeah, I was working as a manual laborer and I ended up crushing these discs in my back. And I was all hunched over for about eight months, and I couldn't work and I didn't get workers' compensation, because it wasn't a quote unquote isolated incident. So I had to go on welfare, and all these things kind of, it turned out in the end, but I think that journey really gave me a very strong appreciation for being able to do this right now, having the ability to do this.

Kirk:
So fast forward, I ended up being trained in web design, and I just, one of the first offers I got out of school was for an upstart eLearning company. So I began like 17 years before eLearning was eLearning, really, and hopped in and just loved it. I think it's because I'm a natural teacher. I really love knowledge, lifelong learner, all those kind of cliche words that you would get out, but overall, it was a long journey. I also started an eLearning company and then subsequently sold my shares off and moved to the Middle East, where I worked as a eLearning specialist for a major airline in the Middle East, and then also worked for a gigantic fashion company in the Middle East, as well.

Kirk:
So I began seeing a trend of more experiential learning. So I saw a lot of people trying to do interactive stories, but without doing interactive stories, like they didn't want to call them that, they didn't want them to be that way. The biggest thing you would get is could we have a scenario? And then even the scenario, there wasn't enough narrative. People didn't feel involved. And then when I finally moved back to Canada, I started again with the typical eLearning and then realized, okay, this is fine, but you know you want more. And that's when I came across yourself and Ryan and interactive storytelling, and I was like, yes, I'm in, I'm in.

Anna:
It was just that.

Kirk:
What do you want? Okay, I'm in. And so it's been a really I think humbling experience for myself, too. After being in eLearning for 17 years, you learn certain things and what's going to work, what's not going to work. And getting into the inter, I don't know, interactive storytelling, it was again, kind of going back to ground zero, which was exciting, because I didn't know exactly how to put it together. I knew what the end product would look like, again, seeing Broken Co-Worker and things like that, going, yes, I want to do stuff like that.

Kirk:
And so for me, the process of going through your online material, and then the group calls are fantastic. And so what I have learned is, again, humility, in learning something new, and also learning that things don't necessarily take the path that you necessarily think it's going to. For example, I didn't realize that I would be working so closely with a subject matter expert or with a practitioner to get their feedback continually on the fly, which ended up being really great because the buy-in was so much more pronounced, because now it's not just me. I'm just another piece of the puzzle that's working towards this vision that's in someone's head. And we were work together in accomplishing that goal. And to me, that was really great. Seeing the subject matter experts starting to get excited about possibilities, rather than, "Here's our PDF or our Word document, see you later." Getting that excitement and then having it permeate through other people and hearing that other people are starting to get excited about this.

Kirk:
And so I think there is that sea change that's taking place in eLearning, where the learner isn't satisfied with what they're learning. It's not so much that we're putting out bad eLearning. There is bad eLearning, for sure. But it's just that the audience has changed. They've evolved, they've become more tech savvy. They've become more intelligent when it comes to being able to interact with your eLearning. And if you're just asking them to press buttons all the time, without really engaging them mentally, it just becomes a click through. I mean, that's where I've seen a difference, where people are taking the time, feeling invested, wanting to see how this story plays out. It's the cliffhanger.

Anna:
It's so interesting that you said that whole idea about collaboration, because I think that, I mean, I've personally been on projects, too, where you can push through and through brute force you produce something awesome, but you hated every minute of that process because it sucked and you felt like you were pulling teeth. And I think a lot of us think that that's the norm, that it has to be that way. And if there is those projects where you actually do connect with somebody, and they're onboard, and they get you, and you start, it feels so good. That end product's awesome too, but this, yeah. And I know when you were talking, you were saying that you had a subject matter expert who was giving you ideas, and you really connected with this person, right?

Kirk:
Yeah, and I think the other element that really kind of struck me about the interactive storytelling was being iterative, was that one of the things that has still to this day stuck in my mind from one of our calls that Ryan said was, "You're a screenwriter." You're rewriting the script, like it's iterative.

Kirk:
And I think that's another thing that is starting to take shape. You know, we talk about agile learning or agile development, and this and that and the other, but there's not a lot of people that actually truly practice that, I don't find, at least with the people that I've worked with. And to see someone get excited and realize that this is moving forward and there's momentum, and they're starting to see things, and new iterations come, and educating them on the fact that it's not like, "Okay, let's get all of our calculations right and then press go." Like, we're going to change trajectory maybe a hundred times. But as we do that, we're shedding a lot of the stuff that we don't need. And once that clicks in, as soon as that clicked in, wow, the project started really moving, because there was no fear of quote unquote failure.

Kirk:
There was no, "It should be like this." No, it's going to be the way we develop it. And so that gives you a certain feeling. I don't know, for me, it gave me a certain sense of freedom in so much that, "Oh God, oh no, I put this here." Yeah. Guess what? You can take it away. Getting out of that mindset was also, I think, somewhat of a challenge for the subject matter experts that I've been working with. But once they get it, they get it, and it's great. Yeah.

Anna:
So, okay. Before we get into the interactive story, what actually made you join? [inaudible 00:09:13] you were like, "Oh yeah. Okay. We're going to do this. We're going to [inaudible 00:09:16]."

Kirk:
Honestly, it can go all the way back to being in the UAE. I got to a place, this is a bit candid and personal, but I was actually hospitalized from my work in the Middle East, simply because I went from being essentially an eLearning developer to being the head of like an eLearning department, with one person running everything, launching a new platform, all that kind of stuff. And what came about was the realization that I'm running around in circles, trying to make something work that I don't actually truly believe in, in the end. It's not that I didn't believe in the platform or the information or the whatever, but it was just the same eLearning, and I'm like, why am I killing myself, literally killing myself, for something that feels incredibly vexatious to my soul? Like, I could just feel it pulling out of me.

Kirk:
And then that was the I have to change. I've got to do something different. This is not the only way of doing it. You yourself said that. It's like, there is another way. And the reason I think I pivoted and started thinking more about experiential learning and things of that nature, and diving into what you had to do or what you and Ryan offer, is just knowing that there is an alternative, and knowing that there are people out there with the knowledge that I really crave and would like to know, like a guitar teacher, or a piano teacher, or whatever. You're an interactive storytelling person that has done these multiple times, so it only stands to reason that I would want to learn from someone who's already made it happen.

Kirk:
And I'll be honest. I showed Broken Co-Worker to people in the Middle East, trying to get them to get behind something like that. And obviously it didn't sell. I couldn't do the sales job because I'd never done it. So now that I've actually put one in place, I do feel a little bit more knowledgeable, as it were. But when it came down to joining and deciding to go with it, honestly, it was you and Ryan. I'd seen your guys' work, or both of your work. When I was stuck, I would hop on your YouTube channel and kind of go, "Okay, well, what would Anna do?" And then seeing some of the things that Ryan was putting out, and seeing him on the Articulate community, and seeing that you guys just didn't show up. You know what I mean? You've been in the game a long time, and for me, it was a no brainer. For me, it was a no brainer.

Kirk:
And it really hearkened back to when I did my yoga teacher training. So I was in Bali, doing this yoga teacher training, and I was talking to my instructor. He was great. I love him. And we were chatting. And he said, "You know what? It sometimes surprises me how people can think about teacher training." I don't know. It was like a few thousand dollars for the teacher training. And I think what people fail to realize is that the money you're spending, you are getting everything that person's accumulated in his 30 years of yoga, and Ryan and yourself, the experiences that you have. So I'm getting all the cliff notes, I'm getting all the good stuff. I don't have to go through all the headaches and pains and all that kind of stuff.

Kirk:
So when I found out how much it was, I was like, "Yeah, okay, fine. Let's do it." It just makes sense, because you have someone who actually knows what they're talking about, and that like, know, trust factor was like stamp of approval. I was in. It wasn't a concern. I didn't have any reservations whatsoever about joining, none.

Anna:
That's cool. That's awesome. I love it. So, okay. Let's talk about your interactive story.

Kirk:
Yes.

Anna:
Okay. So I know it's a private project, but as far as just your audience that you're targeting, it's for adults. Can you give us a little, like as much as you can?

Kirk:
Sure, sure. Yeah. So it's regulation and legislation based, like it's for ... Hmm, how can I word it without giving it away? But it's for a Canadian institution. How about that?

Anna:
And professional adults who are doing...

Kirk:
And professional adults who have a high level of intelligence, that it's not the first time they've ever done any eLearning or things like that. When I say high intelligence, meaning, it's not like they're sitting, going, "Okay, what do I press?" They're very aware of online learning. And I think for them, the audience, I'm sure every audience feels this way. I don't know why I'm so exacerbated about the whole thing, but just, audiences are tired.

Anna:
Oh, gosh.

Kirk:
Learners are just tired of the same. Like, they can't find the next button quick enough. You know what I mean? It becomes like a game. It's like a game within the eLearning, of going, how can I get through this really quick, rather than actually sitting down and starting to go through something and realize, wow, I'm, A, enjoying this, and B, holy cow, I learned something. You know what I mean? By removing the, "Here are your six learning objectives," and, "We will be going through module one." And you know what? I'm not going to pooh-pooh any of that. In certain situations, that's exactly what you need.

Kirk:
But for people who are a little bit more adept, you need to start thinking outside of the proverbial box. And when I approached the client with this, there is some quote unquote regular eLearning, but then right smack in the middle, the juicy part that they really need people to know, that's where I sold the interactive story. It's like, you can talk to them all about concepts. You can talk to them all about theory. But unless they actually see all this stuff over here in real time, like happening, there's no context. There's no point of reference, because nobody's ever experienced it Or if they have experienced it, maybe they didn't experience it that way.

Kirk:
And so getting the client to sign off on realizing that you can do things differently, it goes back to that old saying, "You don't know what you don't know." And I think interactive storytelling practitioners, maybe, I guess you'd call us, need to get out there more and just go, "There is a better way." You know what I mean? Maybe I need a sandwich board.

Anna:
Or a cool t-shirt.

Kirk:
Or a cool t-shirt.

Kirk:
That's pretty much the impetus behind doing the interactive story for this client.

Anna:
What I loved is the fact that you took arbitrary legislation and you actually contextualize it with all these decisions that your character had to make, which is awesome, because how many of us are just told like, "By the way, learn this, follow, remember the bullets, remember the numbers?

Kirk:
Yes. Don't do this. Don't do that. If you do, it'll be bad.

Anna:
Exactly.

Kirk:
Yeah. It was interesting, being able to intertwine or sprinkle these little acts or legislation, or what have you, throughout, because it helped move the story forward. And with that, again, that just proves the point of it doesn't have to be a PowerPoint, bullet by bullet, learn this, go to the resources section, and read about this policy or this procedure. You can actually, like if you think a little bit more, I don't want to say creatively, but if you think about it a little bit differently and shift your perspective slightly, you can stitch these things in in a way that people actually don't mind learning.

Anna:
And that was one of the things that I thought, like every time I see somebody produce their own interactive story, and it's cool because you're taking the framework and then you're like, okay, I'm going to apply it in your context. So you work with your context, you work with your subject matter expert. And then so you bring this element that we haven't thought of before, and now it's, you know, you bring in this legislation, and I was like, it doesn't even take me out of this story and I'm learning all these like geeky facts that otherwise, if you presented it to me, I'd be like, "No, I don't want to."

Kirk:
I don't want to.

Anna:
Yeah, I don't want to. And most of them are really like, "I don't want to," but there, it actually made sense. And I think one of the things that gives you kind of like a litmus test, like if total newbs go through it and they're like, "This is good. This is actually interesting," you've won, you know what I mean? If you enjoy going through it as you're doing it, you've won.

Kirk:
And you know what, that reminds me, as far as the lesson goes, is again, not being too cute.

Anna:
[crosstalk 00:19:13] Talk about that, talk about that.

Kirk:
For sure. And I think, for me, I have a tendency to be like Apple, and I overdevelop things. And it's just like, wow, sorry, all you Apple people or Mac people. It's not a bad thing, but they produce something that's amazing, and then they keep sort of overdeveloping it. And I realized that, okay, great, what is actually helping the story and what is starting to distract from the story? And that was kind of like with me using [inaudible 00:19:48] and those characters, and having their mouths move, it was just way too much. And so when you start going ... Oh, can you hear that? You can tell I'm out in the woods, there's a chainsaw.

Anna:
Super faint. I can't even tell that was a chainsaw.

Kirk:
I was just like, hopefully that's not at your house. But yeah, it really, for me, hit home, keeping it simple.

Anna:
And that's hard.

Kirk:
If you're blurring things up in your story, you're convoluting a story for no reason other than your own ego. You just want to put a cooler button or a niftier transition, or what have you. And it just kept going back to that, like I had that right beside my laptop, does it help the story? And if it's not helping the story, why is it there? And so that really required some self discipline, because being creatives, we want to bring in everything. And then we'll have this zoom by.

Anna:
It's a huge discipline. Like Ryan says, it's simplicity, and that's not Ryan's quote, simplicity is [inaudible 00:21:02], but that's like, you've got to keep on hammering that home. And that was cool, because I know that when you first started, you had all these branches, you had all these options, and then it's almost like...

Kirk:
I just kept paring down.

Anna:
Yeah, yeah. And then the final product, most people will not see it. The people who get to see it are super lucky. It's fabulous. And it's now a model that you can reuse again.

Kirk:
And that one was a mindblower, when I was like, Oh my God, I have a template. I have something that I can reuse. That was, I think there are epiphany moments. Again, it's hard to explain what happens in our group sessions. That sounds not so great.

Anna:
It's all [crosstalk 00:21:53].

Kirk:
But in group. So, but that idea that there are so many different eLearning specialists, people who are new, people who have been in the game for a while, but there's always the opportunity for something new to be ... You're exposed to some new ideas. Someone else can see something that maybe has been tripping you up for two weeks, and they just see it because they see it. And being in that group environment provides that, and I don't know, the platform for people to be able to go, "I'm learning, too. This is what I think." And knowing that is really, it's really great to know that everybody is taking a different slant on how, because there are no rules. That's the greatest part. There's some certain things that you need to do for sure, to make it happen, but you can make it anything you want. And that's really great.

Kirk:
I love that fact, that however you want to try and make it happen, you can make it happen. I just, I was in awe when I first joined and saw Luis's stuff and Kimberly's stuff, and I was like, Oh my God, do I know anything? And then once you let go of that and realize everybody's learning, too, and everybody's just as excited to learn as you are, then it becomes great.

Anna:
So as far as a skillset or something that you learned professionally through this, that you were like, okay, that's a good add on to your toolkit, is there anything there that you were like, yeah, that's a good, I'm going to put that in my pocket?

Kirk:
Yeah. There's a couple of things. I started learning this a little bit before I returned to Canada, but again, get the heck away from your development tool. Get the heck away from your development tool. Do not start your interactive story with your development tool. It's just not good. Like I told you before, I'm a recovering A type. So it takes me a little bit to just dial it down to decibels that are okay. But yeah, that was a huge one. Again, just reinforcing that you need to really sort of take a step back, breathe, and then allow yourself to, I don't want to use the word vulnerable, but because we're always in the eLearning realm, we are the specialists. That's why people come to us.

Kirk:
But bringing someone into the fold, that I feel like it's not that it has to happen delicately, but there's a certain level of bedside manner in the way in which you bring someone into the eLearning realm and educate them on what you're trying to accomplish with them. And watching how Ryan and yourself will say, like, "Get the iterations out, get them seeing something more." It goes back to what I was saying, that of course I would pay the money to get into the group, because you've already dealt with all the growing pains of all those things. So the little snippets of keeping it simple, not overdeveloping, sticking to the story, not trying to all of a sudden change things halfway through, or going, "Oh, I've got this great idea." Yeah, that's great. Shelf that, finish this. And I think that, for me, has really helped tremendously.

Kirk:
Watching the process and the mechanics, Oh my God, the mechanics, just knowing that there is like, I was never taught, and I've been at this for a little while, the learning mechanics of the rewind mechanic, or this mechanic, or what do you want to model it after? Just being exposed to the different ways in which you can do interactive stories has been, I think for me, invaluable, because now I feel like it's literally like going to a grocery store and going, "Oh, I think I'm going to go with that mechanic. And I think I'd like this kind of template," and you can piece it together, and there's still room for learning. There's always room for learning.

Kirk:
So seeing how someone else is doing something really inspires me to want to do something a little different. And then even seeing Ryan or yourself get really juiced up on an idea or something happening just goes again to show that it's not that you and Ryan are the quote unquote gurus and know everything, but you know more than I do about interactive story, but just as much as I'm open to learning, so are the both of you, which makes it very endearing and makes it very comfortable. And the enjoyment factor goes way up.

Anna:
Cool. Like I said, I learn new things every time somebody launches a project, because like you said, the mechanics are, it's an awesome world we live in, I think. It's just full of opportunity. It's so cool. So, okay. So if you were going to, if somebody is joining and you're like, okay, here's some advice.

Kirk:
Check your ego at the door.

Anna:
What does that mean? What does that mean?

Kirk:
No, I think the thing is that just as much as we are creating interactive stories, we are creating a different way of thinking. We are creating a different way to deliver things. If you just show up in the group like you know it all, and you know how this is going to work, and this is going to be like that, and, oh, I know Articulate, it's a different game. And it's not that it's good or bad. It's just different. And you have to allow yourself to be, or you should allow yourself to be open. I was very closed off. I'm still getting used to the Facebook group, and it's not that I don't want to be involved. It's just taking me, it takes me a little while to warm up to the group and everything like that.

Kirk:
But now that I'm in there more, and you had suggested this, you were like, "Post. Do things like that," and I had been reluctant to, because honestly, and this goes back to the check your ego at the door, my ego was worried. Like, what if I showed the group something and I looked stupid, and I didn't know something? And it's like, yeah, that's why you're here. You know what I mean? That's the environment you're supposed to fall down. You're supposed to be learning how to ride the interactive story bike here, not out there.

Kirk:
And once that sort of took hold, I started to relax a little bit and go, okay, why are you putting pressure on yourself about what someone's going to think? And everybody else is probably thinking the same thing. And once, you can tell the people who have been in the group a little bit longer, because they've kind of let those things go.

Anna:
Yeah, it's like...

Kirk:
Yep, here. Here it is.

Anna:
My dirty laundry. Here's mine.

Kirk:
Exactly. And all the illustrations suck, and all the pictures suck, but do you know what's going on? Yes, I do. Great. That's all I wanted to hear. And once I relinquished that concern or that worry that, oh, no, because after being in the industry for as long as I have been, to all of a sudden go, "Hi, I'm new," it's different. It's just different. You're not like, when I'm normally, like in the Middle East, I would be leading the meetings. And so now it's just in the back corner. Hi, I have a question.

Anna:
It's funny, though, because you say that, but what it does also is there are areas of expertise that you bring to the group that we don't have.

Kirk:
Well, yes. And so does everyone. That's, again, an amazing element of the group, is just seeing all these amazingly creative, articulate, well thought out people coming up with these incredible, like the Mountain Mayhem. I am so excited. Well, that and that poor girl that passed away in the North shore snowshoeing. I look at her project and go-

Anna:
You're going to save lives.

Kirk:
You will literally save lives. And that is incredible. Seeing how impactful, I mean, we just have to think of it this way. If people are just trying to find the next button, clicking through, and then they come to something like that, an interactive story where they're actually engaged and focused and learn something, we've changed the game. It's shifting how people learn. And I know that for me, I'd much rather go through an interactive story than go through bullet points. For me, that just bores me to tears. And that's why I try not to have anything like that, because I was like, I wouldn't like to do that myself.

Kirk:
So having done the project that I did, I went through that project, I would say at least 50 times, like just going through, going through, going through, and each time going, okay, how can I just refine it just that little bit? And it wasn't a full redevelopment. It wasn't overdeveloping. It was just making it more succinct. And when that happens, it becomes very cool.

Anna:
It's your piece of art.

Kirk:
Yeah, that's true. It's true. It's a lot of fun. It's a lot of fun.

Anna:
Okay, so this is awesome. Oh, that's awesome advice, too, check the ego, drop the ego, just get rid of the ego. The ego [crosstalk 00:32:31] the enemy.

Kirk:
It's so hard. And I don't know if it's a male thing, or I don't want to get into the gender thing, but man, it's been tough for me, and I think it's because I perceive that because I've been in the game, I should know certain things. And if we let go of what we think we should know, then that leaves room for things to actually move in, and get that knowledge.

Anna:
And I mean, I think a lot of it too is we work solo, right? You're by yourself in your own silo, listening to your own ego and language. And that is, like you said, vulnerability is, it's hard. And it's also hard, I think, to trust. And that takes time.

Kirk:
And, but I mean, with you, especially how you facilitate the group, I think there's always room to chat. There's always time to, if time goes over, you and Ryan have been incredible with your time. The fact that you go through our stories and give us advice and take the time, not just, "Oh, you should probably make it like this," when you give advice, there's actual actionable things that I can do. It's not just, "Well, maybe you might think about doing this." It's like, "No, do this, check that out. If you do this, I guarantee you, it's going to change things." And that happened with all of my answers, as you saw. And that wouldn't have happened had I not received the feedback I got from you.

Kirk:
And so again, with the checking the ego at the door, understanding that don't ask for feedback if you don't really want it. If you want to learn, you're going to have to get feedback, and not everything you're going to produce is going to be good, and not everything you produce, everybody's going to go, "Oh my God, that's incredible." But if you're willing to put it out there and see what happens, it's much better than just keeping it in the closet and just going, "Oh, well, I'll just fiddle around with this and then just give it to the client." Then you're not really putting out your best work. That's why we have the group, because all these different eyes can get on your thoughts or what you want to be producing. And that's one of the things that I just love. I think it's so cool.

Anna:
And I wanted to commend you, actually, because I think that a lot of people get into the thing that they want to create something innovative, they want to learn, but then they withdraw. And you are one of the people that actually, like all the feedback that I provided, and you were like implement. It was awesome. It's just amazing. It's humbling to me, because I was like, I would have thrown a couple of hissy fits, and you were just like, "Implement and make it better."

Kirk:
Well, yeah, and understanding that we're all in that group for the same purpose. We want to put out good quality things. And sometimes you can't see it. It's like, Kirk, this isn't working. What do you mean, it's not working? I press this and it works. No, it's not working. You know what I mean? Getting feedback that is going to move your project forward, and ultimately put a better product out there, again, like I said, it's invaluable. Yeah, fine. Here's the money, let's do this. For me, it doesn't make sense to me how people can balk at the price that you're offering this, and then once they get in and see what they get, it's like, why wouldn't you? Literally, if this is, I think very much like Kimberly, if you know that there is a better way, there is something different out there, and you love learning, then the money part comes. It shows up. It'll come back to you. It will come back to you.

Kirk:
And I feel like once I show this interactive story to this one group, I'm not sure exactly how things, like not in a negative way. From what I've gotten back from the client thus far, they've been super excited, and they haven't even seen the video elements yet. They haven't seen any of the finished product. They haven't seen any of it. They're going to see it on Friday. So that should be interesting. I'm looking really forward to it. And I think, again, once people realize the level of dedication that both of you, Ryan and yourself, have put towards this group, it's pretty special and it's pretty cool. And I feel very humbled to be a part of the group, because I get to pick your brain twice a week. It's all right with me, okay.

Anna:
Awesome. Okay, so if somebody wants to get in touch and work with you, craft their next interactive story with you, where should they go?

Kirk:
Okay. So my website is kewel.ca, and it's spelled kewel.ca. So it's Kirk Edward Wilson, eLearning. That's how we've got that on the go. And I have to actually start, I haven't yet because I've been busy building my interactive story, but I have to now put a section in my website just about interactive stories.

Anna:
Cool. And so people can actually go there and then you have a contact form, they can get in touch with you?

Kirk:
Yeah, for sure.

Anna:
Fabulous.

Kirk:
Yeah, they can definitely get in contact with me. It's only a one pager website. It's very straight, to the point.

Anna:
Minimalist.

Kirk:
Yep. I don't like to put all the fluff in there. You like my work, you want to work with me, let's do it.

Anna:
That's awesome. Awesome, this was so fun, and this was so much, I think even people, I know people in the group always watch interviews because they like learning about who's there. So this will be fun even just for our group to watch together. Awesome.

Kirk:
That's great.

Anna:
Kirk, thanks so much for being here. I really appreciate it.

Kirk:
Yeah. I appreciate the time, or even being asked to come and do an interview. It's been really great. And again, I can't say it enough, but I really, truly thank you to yourself and Ryan for putting this together, and for the time and the energy and the effort that you put into the group, into your videos, into the interactive story, everything, everything, weekly calls. There's a tremendous amount of value that I get from it, for sure, and I'm sure other people do, too.